Many of you may have seen in the news recently that Pastor John Hagee has openly endorsed John McCain. Many of you may not have been familiar with John Hagee, however, he is commonly known to be an anti Catholic. I have seen him on television refer to the Catholic Church in not so favorable light. I am not going to say that John McCain is a bad man but he should know better than to associate himself with such a virulent anti Catholic bigot such as Pastor Hagee.
When I first came back to the Church, these Anti Catholic types used to make me boiling mad. I knew they were outright lying or telling half truths. Now many of these types just make me sad. I think some are so far out there in left field that they are funny and sad at the same time. Chick tracts by Jack Chick are an example of this. The funny part is that they are so far out in left field…The sad part is that so many believe what they say.
Here is a link of the type of things that John Hagee propagates about the Church.
I also found this interesting series that refutes Jack Chick and his tracts. Here is episode one… the rest of the series can be found on youtube by clicking the video.
Update: I read on the Catholic League website that John McCain has repudiated all anti-Catholicism. This includes that of Pastor Hagee. It is nice that a public figure has the courage to refute this kind of garbage.
If you look at the history of the catholic church John Hagee says nothing that is untrue. I would not expect someone who sadly accepts whatever he is told as fact instead of researching and studying for himself to be able to understand Pastor John Hagee’s comments. The catholic church has added books to the bible that are contradictory and consolidate power to themselves (purgatory/pennance), they practice idolatry when you pray to anyone or anything except God (st peter, Mary etc) It is only bigotry if you talk about catholics themselves and not the catholic church and he does not do that. Catholics are people and christians (if they obey the bible), the Catholic church is a institution that has led many people astray. Pray you are not one of them.
Nolan,
It seems to me that you have proven my point. You have all sorts of misconceptions about what the Catholic Church teaches and practices. You also have fallen for stereotypes of Catholics which in itself is a form of bigotry. Your statements saying that myself and all Catholics accept everything that we are told rather than researching and studying for ourselves is a tired and old stereotype. If you knew my background, you might know that I have done hours and hours of studying the Bible, the early Church Fathers and history in my journey back into the Catholic Church. The facts garnered from my study led me to conclude that the Catholic Church is the Church started by Jesus Christ in the first century. If you wish to discuss it futher I will be more than happy to or you can read some of my previous posts.
I want to point out some other errors that you have stated in your comment.
1.)The Catholic Church has added books to the Bible: This is true but not in the way you think. Indeed the Catholic Church added the whole NT to the Bible. The Deuterocanonical books you may be referring to though, were in the earliest versions of the Greek Septuagint that were used by the early Christians. The Jewish people did not close their Canon until after Christianity had separated from Judaism. I can point out a plethora of early Church writings that show that these books were considered Scriputure early on in the Church. I will agee that they were disputed by some but on the whole they were accepted. Various councils included them in the Canon early on. The Church has the authority to determine what books are part of the Canon. The Church did not feel the need to make a formal and binding decision on them until Martin Luther decided to remove them from the Canon along with some of the New Testament. Martin Luther did not have a good opinion of The Epistle of James, Revelation as well as a few other books in the NT. Do some research.
2.) Your comments about Purgatory and Penance: Penance was practiced early on in the Church well before Christianity was legalized by Constantine. The Church at the time had no power at all and was being persecuted. I have been planning on covering purgatory and the early Church. I was reading Origen the other day and he talked about a place much like purgatory(this was before Constantine). I have done far more research than you might think Nolan.
3.)”Praying” to the Saints is idolatry: Where in the Bible does it say that it is idolatry to “ask” someone to “ask” for you. The word pray simply means to ask. Have you ever asked someone to “pray” for you Nolan? If you have….STOP IT YOU ARE PRACTICING IDOLATRY. When Catholics “pray” to the saints they are merely asking the saints in heaven to pray for them just like we ask each other to pray for us. The prayers of the righteous availeth much… as the Bible says and the Saints in heaven are more righteous than either you or I am.
4.)Catholics are Christians if they obey the Bible: I am glad you consider us poor Catholics Christians if we obey the Bible. The problem I have is…whose interpretation of the Bible do we obey. Is it your fallible interpretation or the Infallible interepretation of the Church that has been here from the beginning. The Church is the “Pillar and foundation(or bulwark) of the Truth. It is not the Churchs it is The Church. There is one truth not 30000 different truths. My opinion does not matter when it comes to Truth. The truth is what it is and Jesus left the Church with the authority to proclaim that truth. If you want to get into Bible verses, I am more than happy to do that.
Now I would like to discuss Pastor Hagees lies and half truths. I found this on the Catholic League website:
“In Hagee’s latest book, Jerusalem Countdown, he calls Hitler a Catholic who murdered Jews while the Catholic Church did nothing. ‘The sell-out of Catholicism to Hitler began not with the people but with the Vatican itself,’ he writes.
“For the record, Hitler persecuted the Catholic Church and was automatically excommunicated in 1931—two years before he assumed power—when he acted as best man at Joseph Goebbel’s Protestant wedding. Hitler even bragged about his separation from the Church. As for doing nothing about the Holocaust, Sir Martin Gilbert reminds us that Goebbels denounced Pope Pius XII for his 1942 Christmas message criticizing the Nazis (the New York Times lauded the pope for doing so in an editorial for two years in a row). Much to Hagee’s chagrin, Gilbert also says that Pius XII saved three quarters of the Jews in Rome, and that more Jews were saved proportionately in Catholic countries than Protestant countries. Indeed, Israeli diplomat Pinchas Lapide credited the Catholic Church with saving 860,000 Jews. No religion can match that.
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For more on the Myth of Hitlers Pope try reading the “Myth of Hitlers Pope” by Rabbi David Dalin. It refutes all the lies and half truths propogated against the Church and particularly Pope Pius XII.
As far as the Crusades go: The Crusades were a response against Islamic agression that had occured for hundreds of years before the Crusades had even begun. If you would read modern scholars you would know that it was the Catholic Church that defended against Islam overtaking Europe. I will agree that there were travesties commited on all sides during the crusade but they were committed by people who had their own agendas…not the Church. Try reading Thomas Madden on some of the truths about the crusades.
The Inquisition is another Chapter in the Church that has been highly exagerated by some protestant “historians”. I dont have time to go into it but the fact is that many chose to be tried by the inquisitional courts rather than the secular courts because they knew that they would generally get a more fair and lenient trial. Now there were some injustices done by the inquisitional courts but the courts in the US today commit some injustices too. Did you know that heresy was considered treason during those times as heresy affected the stability of the society. Treason today carries a death penalty. Does that mean the United States is the Whore of Babylon? Does that mean the President is the AntiChrist.
One last comment: If we use Nolan’s and Pastor Hagee’s criteria for determining if the Church is the true Church or the Whore, then Israel could not be the chosen people of God. We all know this is not true. The people of Israel committed many a grave sin against God in the OT because they are sinners just as we Christians are.
[...] http://discoverthefaith.wordpress.com/2008/03/06/john-hagee-an-anti-catholic-bigot/ [...]
Christopher,
First of all I would like to apologize for coming off bigoted which I am not. I would also like to say that I had a counter point for every counter-point from the jewish historian Josephus, 1 Maccabees and lack of mention in the NT for the completion of OT cannon to the authority of the CATHOLIC church vs the authority of the CHURCH to the Fourth Lateran Council and Hitlers justification of the Holocaust to the Pope forgiving sins of crusaders (which he doesn’t have the authority to do) befor they even left. But I prayed before I wrote this and God said do not argue for arguments sake, you will not change minds or bring unity to my church through any of this. So, I apoologize for wasting your time ,as fun as it would have been, my Lord Jesus Christ trumps any back and forth we would have had. But read John Hagee’s In Defence of Israel and see if you agree with the facts (by the way he praise the current pope) and i will try to read Thomas Madden or something to try and create unity not division in Christ’s church.
Your brother in christ,
Nolan
Nolan,
Apology accepted. I believe that many non-catholics are not aware of some prevailing stereotypes that still exist. I just want to say that I don’t engage in apologetics for fun. I do find it interesting but I engage in it because I feel I must as a Catholic Christian.
I just want to clarify one point regarding indulgences during the Crusades, which I believe is what you are talking about. The Church does have the authority according to the Bible to forgive sins. The apostles were given the authority and it was handed down to the Bishops(Overseers) and priests(presbyters). I can provide the verses if you would like. Indulgences were for sins that already had been forgiven. The indulgence is a removal of the temporal punishment of sin by doing certain acts… in this case it was participating in the crusades. The forgiveness was already in place and it was not for future sins. The indulgence merely removes the temporal effects of the sin. God disciplines us and has given the Church the authority to do so on his behalf. As Jesus said: “what you bind on earth is bound in heaven and what you loose on earth is loosed in heaven”. I will agree that indulgences were abused in later times by some. Please remember this point… some of the Crusaders were excommunicated by the Church for their deeds during the crusades.
One last point is that the Councils of Rome, Hippo and Carthage III in the 4th century all included the Deuterocanonical portions of scripture in their canons.
If you ever have time I highly recommend reading the Early Church Fathers like Ignatius of Antioch, Irenaeus of Lyon and the rest.
God Bless and I continuosly pray for the unity that Christ wishes.
I have one simple question…”who killed Jesus?” The Jews or the Roman Empire? Think about it and please respond. Think carefully though and I’ll check back later.
On the basic level Pontius Pilate with cooperation of the Jewish leaders killed Jesus. On a deeper level human sinfullness is what killed Jesus Christ. If it wasn’t for mans sinfulness, Jesus Christ would not have needed to die for our sins. On this level all of mankind played a part in his death.
I was raised Catholic I got away from it….Jesus was Jewish. Not Catholic. I’m not really one for arguing either for the mere reason that Nolan gave but I do have to say this: Jesus never started any Catholic church He was an example. Nolan, don’t apologize for your first comment because you are absolutely RIGHT! Jews are not catholics. Far from it. Christ was clearly Jewish and you have to remember that a lot of the Catholic religions started with the self findings of Constantine who before slaughtering thousands of Jews claimed to so in the name of Jesus just as Hitler and the Crusaders did.. Why then are their “fathers” in the Catholic churches. Jesus was very clear about that in the scriptures. Not to call ourselves Father (for there is only ONE Father who holds the throne in Heaven). He was careful with Mary His own earthly mother who yes should remembered and honored but not prayed to. He did not want her placed up on some pedistal of worship. Same with the Saints. Sorry, but that statement about Jesus (whose real name is Yeshua) starting the first catholic church is clearly wrong. Call me a bigot or whatever you want but I listen to Pastor Hagee every week and chance I get. I think the reason some people don’t like him is because he says it like it is; truth; regardless of whether it hurts someone’s feelings or not. I can assure you that if Paul was walking this earth today he probably wouldn’t be liked by many either because he was an “in your face kind of guy.” And let’s see how we would respond if Jesus actually walked into our churches in the flesh and dressed as he would have back in His day…you know Jewish. He would be dressed like a Rabbi and I would just love to see the look on peoples’ faces if He were walk in like that. I wonder how He would be treated then. The Crusaders were not just against Islam; they were against anyone who didn’t believe the way they did also known as Catholic Christianity. I have studied for years with well reknown Rabbis both Messianic and Orthodox and I can assure you that it was targeted yes at Islams but also at Jews. I have also witnessed to may Arabs in Israel and have found that You cannot claim to love Jesus and hate His brothers. That is where He will look at you and say “depart from Me, I never knew you.” And we can’t forget when He also says “The least of these things you do unto my bretheren (the Jews), you have done unto Me.” Whether that be good or bad. I do agree with you that unity is very important. No church has all the answers. Religion is religion no matter how you look at it. It’s right and wrong in several aspects. I awoke one night from a dream and I am not one to have a lot of visions but when I have one it is very spiritual. I saw a Gentile, A Jew and an Arab walking hand in hand ahead of me when I heard the still voice of God saying “Religion causes division.” How true it is. I am not Christian–just because that word is not even in the scriptures. I have a personal relationship with Christ and love Him with all my heart. I am non-denominational and I love it that way. When you get rid of all rubbish..the man made rules of the church..no matter what church…the beauty of God in both the Torah (OT ) and the NT shows itself even more. When you read Ephesians Ch. 2 starting with vs. 11, you can clearly see that Christ came to demonstrate unity. He had to be the perfect law in order to prove Himself to the legalists (some would say the Pharisees) and yet He still interacted and performed miracles on Gentiles. Paul also warns though about arrogance. We have to remember that Jesus himself said, Salvation is of the Jews. He also says, “I did not come for the righteous but for the unrighteous. So who were the righteous in His time??? Yes, the Jews. He speaks of unity in Ephesians 2 . That was the gospel. It wasn’t just the part that He was the Son of God; that’s just part of it.
You see, we become arrogant when we start believing that we have replaced God’s chosen people (the jews) We, (Gentiles) have been GRAFTED onto the tree. If we become arrogant, He will cut us off! That’s why it is very important to try and unite together under Christ. We have a direct line to Him; that’s the beauty of having a personal relationship with Him. We are to confess our sins one to another for spiritual healing but only our Father in Heaven alone can grant us mercy and peace. He says in the scriptures “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy.” In other words, no priest, no preacher, no teacher, no individual except HIM decides. I will say this, I truly appreciate the dedication that the Catholics demonstrate on communion. I may not agree with some of their doctrine or practices but that is one area that I think just about every church/religion could learn a thing or two. I also believe in confession; I just don’t believe that we gain God’s mercy through another human being. But yes, confessing our sins one to another..that is another commendable attribute the Catholics possess. So, all in all my elongated point is…UNITY. Christians don’t have all the answers but have Christ in their mindset. Islam certainly doesn’t have all the answers but they are so committed to what they really believe in that they will die for it (I don’t agree with that philosophy unless you are dying for the one true God of course), I don’t agree with the Jehova Witness philosophy but they are bold in the way they will come to your doorstep..and it goes on and on and on…Every relgion has something that’s right and somethings that are wrong. But while on this earth, we need to all be an example of Christ’s love and show unity to one another. God bless you all.
Michael,
Thanks for posting. I am sad to see that you are no longer Catholic. I do want to clear up some confusion and misinformation. Nolan apologized because he used some stereotypes to describe myself and other Catholics… not because Jesus was a Jew or Catholic.
Here are some other problems with some of your points.
1.) No one ever said Jesus was not a Jew. No one has ever claimed that on this blog or in the Catholic Church. Jesus was indeed a Jew but he came to bring salvation to ALL mankind.
2.)Jesus did indeed institute a Church which was to include both Jew and Gentile believers alike. He established his Church in the Gospel of Matthew.
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Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood 12 has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
18
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, 13 and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
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I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
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3.)Do you know what the word Catholic even means? The first written use of the word Catholic was used by St. Ignatius Bishop of Antioch in the early second century. Ignatius was alive when the apostles were alive. He was the first to use the word Catholic to describe the Church.
The word Catholic simply means “Universal” or “on the whole”. Ignatius wrote well before our good old pal Constantine.
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Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful to baptize or give communion without the consent of the bishop. On the other hand, whatever has his approval is pleasing to God. Thus, whatever is done will be safe and valid. — Letter to the Smyrnaeans
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4. If Jesus literally meant call no man father period… then why do we call our own dad’s father? Why did Paul call himself a father?
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For if you were to have countless tutors in Christ, yet you would not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.
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For a more in depth analysis you can read this article.
http://www.catholic.com/library/Call_No_Man_Father.asp
5. You confuse individuals with the Church. No one has ever claimed that some people who claimed to be Catholic committed atrocities against Jews as well as other groups. The Church often condemned these actions. You would know this if you listened to the Catholic perspective a little closer.
6.Where does Jesus say that you can’t ask his mother to intercede for us? Chapter and Verse please!
7. Jesus only started one Church period. It came to be known as the Catholic Church. He did not start 30000 different churchs.
8. Your generalizations about the crusades are just that generalizations. You keep associating individuals with the Church. Some crusaders were excommunicated for some of their deeds.
9. Jesus’s Church aka the Catholic Church does have all the answers because Jesus is truth and his Church is his body.
Look at 1 Tim 3:15:
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But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.
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If the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth as the Bible says then yes indeed a Church can have all the truth. It is not 30000 churchs it is one Church. I will agree that some of the truth can be found in other places but not the whole truth.
10. It seems to me that Romans chapter 11 does infer that unbelieving Jews were indeed cut off from the tree and could be grafted back in through belief just as we can be cut off through unbelief and grafted back in. From what I understand Pastor Hagee does not believe that Jews must believe in Christ to be saved. How does that square with Romans 11? You and Pastor Hagee seem to argue against Paul in Romans.
11. Jesus gave the apostles the Power to forgive and retain sin. Why is it so hard to believe that it was not passed on to their successors. Please remember that Christ ultimately is the one that forgives the sins through the priest. See John 20:
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Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you.
As the Father has sent me, so I send you.”
And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them,
“Receive the Holy Spirit.
Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them,
and whose sins you retain are retained.”
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Again it seems you are arguing against the Bible.
One final note: Christ is the truth and his Church contains the fullness of the Truth. I do strongly suggest you read some stuff at the Catholic Answers website and EWTN. Salvation was brought to both gentiles and Jews though Christ and his Church. I pray for unity but unity in truth. Jesus is either what he claimed or he isn’t. God Bless.
Hi. Thanks for writing back. While you have some interesting points, I just want to make this short. First of all, I would never argue against the bible and it is hurtful to think you assume such. However, I love God enough to take a stand for truth. Matthew 6:9 tells us WHO to pray to. He says to pray “OUR FATHER…not our Mary.” Also, in Matthew 23:8-12 ” But you are not to be called Rabbi, for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth “father”, for you have ONE FATHER AND HE IS IN HEAVEN.” So regardless of what Paul said, and I value his teachings, I will still take the safe road to what JESUS HIMSELF said. Obviously God knew we would have earthly fathers and mothers..by birthrights..not by leadership appointment. Also, regarding forgiveness. We are commanded to forgive. All of us are commanded to forgive. The Holy Spirit was also given to everyone on Pentecost. I have received the Holy Spirit also. We all have the ability to forgive but not to decide God’s judgment. I have the authority to forgive my neighbor through the spirit of Christ and if I don’t, then I am not forgiven either. I believe in confessing. God does not forgive people’s sins because we do so, nor does he withhold forgiveness because we do. Rather, those who proclaim the word of God are in effect forgiving or not forgiving sin, depending on whether the hearers accept or reject Christ. Our bodies are the temple of God..not a building. We house Him within ourselves. WE are His temple. So, in short, I am not the least bit sorry I left the Catholic church. I have found peace knowing that I can have a direct line to my Lord and Savior. I can go to Him anytime I want and worship Him in spirit and in truth. at least we can agree to disagree and that is all part of spiritual growth for all of us. I commend your love for Christ as well. Peace and blessings be with you. Your brother, Michael
Michael,
I did not intend it to come across that I thought you were arguing against the Bible intentionally. I do, however, think that you may be unintentionally contradicting the Bible. This may be because you understand certain things different than I do or some other reason.
I do want to touch on a few issues.
1.) The idea that we can ask Mary and/or the Saints to pray for us is a Biblical concept. The type of Prayer to Mary is not the same type of Prayer given to God. The same goes with the Honor given to Mary.
The most basic answer I could give you is that God does choose to talk to people through secondary sources. God uses Angels to deliever messages to people and these Angels can deliever the message back to God too. If he can do this with Angels he can do it with Mary and the Saints.
Next, the Book of Revelation describes the elders delivering the prayers of the Saints to God in bowls of incense. This would indicate that Saints are aware of our prayers.
The final piece of information regarding Mary and intercessory prayers is related to the Old Testament Kingdom as a model or foreshadowing of the New Testament Kingdom. In the Old Testament, the Davidic Kingdom had a structure. This Kingdom forshadowed the Kingdom of Jesus Christ. The OT Kingdom had a King. That King in the New Kingdom is Jesus Christ.
The OT Kingdom had a queen. The queen was not the wife of the King. The queen was the mother of the King. The Queen in the Kingdom of Jesus Christ is his mother Mary. The queen in the OT was often an intercessor between the people and the King. The King loved his mothers so much that he gave her this honor of interceding on behalf of his subjects. The subjects did not have to go through the Queen but they honored her because the King did. As the Kingdom of Jesus Christ is forshadowed by the Davidic Kingdom, he also has a queen and like the Davidic Kingdom, his Mother is the Queen. Because he loves his mother, he has honored her like the queen mothers of the Davidic Kingdom and has allowed her to make intercessions on our behalf. It is only because of Jesus that she can do this. If you have ever asked someone to pray for you, that is all we as Catholics are doing when we say a Hail Mary. The “Hail Mary” is taken directly from the Bible.
On a side note the Kingdom had a royal steward who had the power of the King while he was away. This was symbolized by the King giving the Royal Steward the keys of the Kingdom. Jesus’s new Kingdom also has a Royal Steward who was given the Keys of the Kingdom. The Royal Steward is Peter and his successors on Earth. The parallels between the OT and the NT are plain as day. If you would like I can provide you with the actual passages. I don’t have a lot of time today to find them.
2.) I do think that it is problematic that you ignore the fact that the actual word Father is forbidden only in the situations that you believe Jesus to mean. Is it possible that he meant it in a broader sense than actually calling someone father and also teacher. Could it be that it is wrong to give someone else the titles only attributable to God alone as far as being creator. Maybe this is why Paul says that he is a Father through the Gospel and this is what the Church refers to when we call a priest Father as they are bringing us the Gospel each and every day at Mass. I think that is some food for thought.
3.)As far as forgiveness of Sins: I do agree that on a certain level we are all given the power to forgive sins but not on the same level as the apostles and their successors. They were given the power to Bind and Loose and to forgive and retain sins. You can see this power used when Peter refuses to lay his hands on Simon the Magician(Sorcerer) in Acts 8 9-24. The early Church did believe the Bishops and priests had the power to forgive and retain sin rather than your interpretation of it. The passages don’t make a lick of sense with your fallible interpretation.
4.)I agree that our Bodies are a temple of God. We are temples when we recieve the Body and Blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in a valid Eucharist and also the holy spirit. The Church is More than a building but a building is where we worship him and gather as a community. At one time it was houses and cemeteries. When the CHurch was legalized and grew bigger places were needed for worship. Worship of God is not just a personal experience…it is a communal one as well. The Church is the Kingdom of God on Earth and in heaven. The Church is used to keep the Body and Blood until we recieve it as well as a place to worship God. We are not in this by ourselves, we are part of Gods Kingdom and his Kingdom is a visible one.
Michael…I am truly happy that you have found Jesus Christ. I am sad that you have not fully found his Church though. If you ever would like to discuss why you left the Church offline by email, I would be more than happy to listen. Just let me know. God Bless.
Chris
Interesting insight, Chris. But, in a nutshell, I could argue these theories in detail backed by scripture. I could go on and on and on and on. It usually boils down to the sad misinterpretation of scriptures. That is why I have chosen to study under Jewish Rabbis both Messianic and Orthodox. The HIGH priests that you speak of in sciptures…they were Jewish. The majority of Jews use scriptures based on original scrolls; not church made doctrine. I am not the least bit sorry I left the Catholic church and have more than enough of its history pounded into my brain that I prefer not to remember. Perhaps your church is different that mine was; however, growing up in a household when you are told never to touch or read the Bible is absolute rubbish and it took me leaving that particular cultic church to realize it. Being told that my daughter was stricken with cancer because she was not baptized as a baby (because I do not believe in that practice), is pathetic thinking. The funny thing is, my own mother is now fighting disease, my aunt committed suicide a couple of days ago; oh, but she was a great catholic woman and loved the church. Too bad she didn’t have peace though, huh? I do not contradict anything in scripture when it is interpretated properly and perhaps I have been gifted maybe in a way of interpretations aside from what you see. Funny though, I’m not Catholic, never had my little girl baptized as a baby, and still, somehow, God miraculously reached down and touched her little body . I did go to a Priest..His name is Jesus. And He is my intercessor to the Father. He says: “I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE AND NO MAN CAN COME TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME.” He didn’t add “or my saints”. We are Saints; therefore we have direct access to Jesus. As I said before, we can agree to disagree…that happens among brothers ….from all walks of faith. I have in peace in knowing that someday, when I sit at the wedding supper, I will be anxious to hear the whole truth and nothing but the truth when our Lord and Savior teaches us all. May daughter was diagnosed at age 2 and was given 10% chance to see age 3. She is now 7 1/2. In my desperation, I cried out to Him…sorry, I didn’t cry out to Mary. I am thankful that He gave ME the same perks that you feel the Saints have…that is because when we have a relationship with Christ directly, we all become Saints. That gives me the direct communication I desire. I must go now and this will be my last post. God bless you and keep you.
Michael
[...] http://discoverthefaith.wordpress.com/2008/03/06/john-hagee-an-anti-catholic-bigot/ [...]
Michael,
I want to say that I am truly saddened at how you were treated by some Catholics and the misinforation that you were given by them. If it was a priest I would suggest that you should let the Bishop of the Diocese know that he is teaching error. I do want to apologize on behalf of the Church for this behavior. It is shameful and is not Church teaching.
Catholics are allowed to read the Bible and are encouraged to read it. I know some in the past may have been confused about this but that is the official teaching. As you may know if you attend Mass everyday in 3 years you will hear and read pretty much the whole Bible. I don’t think any other Church can match that. I read the Bible as much as I can. I have been putting the readings for the week at Mass on my Blog. I give links to the whole reading. I try to do this by Saturday night each week. Feel free to look around at them. I find them usefull.
While I do believe in infant baptism, I find it offensive that someone would use the tactic of saying that your child was sick because they werent baptised. Sickness originates because of the original sin of Adam but people who are baptised still get sick. This does not make sense and it is not the teaching of the Church. Now God sometimes uses sickness as discipline to bring us to him and refine us as Christians but that is not the only reason people get sick.
I just want to quickly state that I was not a practicing Catholic for quite a few years and God did use a major illness to bring me back to him and his Church. The first surgery that I had to remove a pituatary tumor I did not have the sacrament of healing but the second one that I had, I did have it administered. The second one according to my doctor had more risks because of the nature of the surgery, but the nurses were all suprised at how quickly I recovered. I believe that it was my parents faith as well as the priests and Christ working through the priest to heal me. This was one of the things that lead me to eventually come back to Christ and the Church. God works his ways for a reason.
I do want to leave you with one last question. What does the Bible say when two Christians have a dispute. I look to Matthew 18:15-17. This passage indicates if the dispute can’t be resolved by the two parties you take it to two or three witenesses but then if it can’t be resolved there to take it to the Church. It says the Church not the Churchs so whose Church should we take it to? I believe that there is one that qualifies. I think in Acts we see how Paul and Peter solved the problems of Gentiles and circumcision. They took it to the Church and the decision was binding.
I do wish your daughter and yourself and the rest of your family well. I will pray for the continued health of your daughter. Feel free to continue to peruse this site from time to time. I hope to answer some of your questions in some future posts. I will post it just as information, not to continue an arguement. I did post a follow up on Pastor Hagee that has a link to an article that you might find interesting. I am still not entirely sure about him but it does give some more insight. It is not a negative article about him.
God Bless
Chris
One last quick question Michael. How do you address the “Rabbis” that you study under? The same passage that forbids one to be called father forbids one to call one a Rabbi or teacher as is its meaning?
I don’t. They have first names. For example, I am currently studying with Eliahu. I call him Eli for short. The leader of our church or “pastor” I call Scott. That is his name. I call people by their names…as we should.
PS….thank you, Chris for your insight. I do not the least bit doubt that you are not from the same “sect” as I would call it of Catholic teachings I was brought up in. I was not taught to have a relationship with Christ…nor do I really see my parents to this day have one…however, I am not at liberty to judge them in any way…just perceive what I have seen. I do not disrespect the Catholic church. As I said before I do agree with several of their practices, but maybe not all of them anymore than I would expect you to agree with all of mine. However, in my studies, your question about resolving a dispute? It should be taken to the local congregation. The word “church” means congregation. So it could be any church who supports Torah (from what Christ was teaching) and the teachings of Christ. It does not stipulate a denomination. The word “christian” is not there; nor is the word “catholic.” So to say there is only one that would be fit for this is not really what Christ said.
You are absolutely correct however about how a disagreement should be handled. I thank you sincerely for your prayers. Praise God for your healing as well. Thank you and God Bless.
I agree that Church does not refer to a denomination, because at first there were no denominations, there was one Church and the word Catholic(universal) was used to describe it(in the late first century-early second century in writing).
I would suggest you read some of the early Church fathers that were handed on teachings from the apostles. Of course their writings are not scriptural but many were handed the office of “Bishop”(overseer) from the apostles. Some were taught by the apostles. I find their writings give an interesting insight to the early Church. Some of the writers like Ignatius of Antioch, Clement of Rome, Irenaeus of Lyon, Justin Martyr and many more are treasures of the Church.
All these men wrote before Christianity was legalized by Constantine and many were killed for their beliefs as “Christians”. Did you know that the Eplstle of Clement to the Corinthians was considered scripture by some in the early Church and that the New Testament Canon was not set until the fourth century by the Catholic Church. Some of the books were disputed like Revelation and Hebrews and others. The Church, through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, set the list of books in the NT Canon.
One thing ,you should strongly consider, is that the Bible does not say that words have to be in the Bible for them to be used by believers. Often words are transliterations or descriptions of concepts. To reject words because they are not in the Bible is just not Biblical.
God bless
Yes, you’re right. And I would strongly suggest reading the COMPLETE JEWISH BIBLE ….David Stern. A former Orthodox Jew who came to know his Messiah…who actually took scriptures from original scrolls written by the Apostles. The apostles were Jews also. The forefathers such as Abraham, Moses, etc…..all Jews. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Timothy, Jesus, Mary…all Jews. So I cannot help but to deny the claim that any such church started was Catholic..unless of course it was started by pagans which could clearly have happened but according to the real, original scrolls (which only the Jews have in their possession and have hidden for a reason) it clearly was not. You may choose to believe how you wish and I will choose to believe mine….I have just one more question…if you feel that the first church founded was Catholic, then could you please explain why we celebrate Christmas and Easter? Clearly these days originated from pagan holidays and clearly Jesus nor His followers would have ever taken such part in pagan tradition..otherwise He would not have really been the Messiah…because the Messiah was the perfect law. Also, do you eat pork? Clearly Jesus did not. So, if He didn’t and if the first church founded was Catholic and founded by Him as you state, then why do we eat pork?? (I don’t but generally speaking). Just curious and would like to hear your opinion. Have a blessed day.
Michael,
No one is saying that Jesus and the Apostles werent Jews. The problem is that they preached the Gospel to all nations not just to the Jews. Peter and Paul went to Rome as well as other places and so did the other Apostles. Christianity or whatever you choose to call it was forced out of Israel for various reasons. The temple was destroyed and they were persecuted by the non Christian Jews. St. Stephen was stoned in Jerusalem. James was killed in Jerusalem. The apostles appointed Bishops and presbyters(priests) and deacons in the places they went. The religion soon included both Jew and Gentile alike. The religion became centered in Rome because of the destruction of Jerusalem. Peter and Paul died in Rome and Peter’s successors appointed in Rome are the Popes of today.
It is commonly accepted that Jesus declared all foods clean in the Gospel ofMark 7:17-18. I do eat pork occasionally because of this. Like circumcision, the dietary laws passed away. What you eat does not save you or defile you. There are other passages that refer to this but I am running out of time today.
Scrolls were used early on because the codex or book, was not invented until the second century.
I would really like to know the location of these secret original scrolls of the NT, because I can’t seem to find any reference to them. My impression I am getting is that the “Complete Jewish Bible” is taken from the same early manuscripts that some other translations are taken from. The only difference is that Dr. Stern used the Jewish versions of names and such. I know that many people have some issues with the translation.
I found this at wikipedia on the origins of December 25th as the birth of Jesus.
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It is unknown exactly when or why December 25 became associated with Christ’s birth. The New Testament does not give a specific date.[17] Sextus Julius Africanus popularized the idea that Christ was born on December 25 in his Chronographiai, a reference book for Christians written in AD 221.[14] This date is nine months after the traditional date of the Incarnation (March 25), now celebrated as the Feast of the Annunciation. March 25 was considered to be the date of the vernal equinox and early Christians believed this was also the date Christ was crucified. The Christian idea that Christ was conceived on the same date that he died on the cross is consistent with a Jewish belief that a prophet lived an integral number of years.[18]
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As you can see, this proves that it was not Constantine that gave the date of December 25. It was done far before Christianity was legalized and the reasons for it were not connected to paganism. Easter has reasons for why it is celebrated when it is and they are not connected to Constantine either. They were established early on in the Church.
Jesus would not command his Apostles to make disciples of all nations if he practiced strict Judaism as that would have made the Apostles unclean. He gave the Apostles the Authority to Bind and Loose and this authority was passed down. Many of the Jewish ceremonial laws were no longer valid because Jesus had fullfilled them in his death. Animal sacrifice is no longer required because Jesus fulfilled it and instituted a new bloodless sacrifice in the Eucharist. Do you have animal sacrifices and if not… why not?
I am having trouble with some of your reasoning. You are basing everything on the premise that Jesus was a Jew and since he was a Jew his religion must still be identical to Judaism. While the first part is true, Christianity grew out of Judaism and became something more. It became the Church for all of mankind. It is a universal Church that is Jewish and at the same time more than Jewish. It is the completion of Judaism and it included Jews and Gentiles alike. The apostle Paul is widely considered the Apostle to the Gentiles and many of the problems that you have with Catholicism and Christianity in general were resolved in the Book of Acts.
Have a good evening and God Bless
I will still continue to disagree with your logic of Catholicism itself. I will never return to it. Funny that you should mention Peter and all of the popes who decided to inherit his name. I just watched a show called the Naked Archaeoligist on the History channel that clearly proved without a shadow of a doubt that the remains of Peter are NOT in Rome but rather are in Israel. I’m sure you could go to the History Channel website and read up on it for yourself. I do not argue that Jesus came for Jews and Gentiles but I do support John Hagee’s theory on the salvation end of it. Jesus said, “I did not come for the righteous but for the unrighteous.” You see, there were several Jews who were still considered “righteous” in the eyes of God; even after Jesus came. He came for me, for you, and for everyone else considered “unrighteous.” Abraham didn’t know Christ either; nor any of the prophets. But they still dwell with our Heavenly Father. We know they are there because scripture tells us that when Christ returns as King He will bring two witnesses; those witnesses are Moses and Elijah. Not the pope and Mary.
I’m not saying Jesus practiced Judaism either; however Judaism is not technically a religion; it is rather the complete support of the Torah…so, I guess you could say that He did practice it. He was it. You are also correct when you say that He was the ultimate sacrifice. True. I believe that with all my heart.
Perhaps people do have some issues with the “Complete Jewish Bible.” Probably because they don’t know how to read it. I also happen to have many issues with a lot of other translations. For instance, in Mark where you spoke of the “food.” You have to understand that when Jesus spoke in parables, He spoke in a way that people could relate. You also have to read further back in the chapter (7). Jesus was speaking more of knowledge. It isn’t what goes in but what comes out…how you interpret it. Otherwise, how do you explain the prayer shawl that was dropped down by God before Peter. For hundreds of years Christians have interpreted his vision as God’s permission to kill and eat any animal..which it clearly isn’t. It was a vision to let Peter know that he and other Jewish-Christians were permitted to enter the homes of Gentiles to bring them the good news of Christ and his teachings. Peter even told God when God said, “Rise, Peter, kill and eat.” But Peter said, “Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean.” so God told him again “what God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.” God used the Jewish dietary laws to bring the point to Peter and Peter never gave into the temptation. Peter knew that God would never change HIS word or HIS LAWS. He may explain it or show meaning in different ways as Jesus often did but He knew that God would never abolish it; nor did Jesus for He Himself said, “I did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it.” God was only testing Peter. God was not cleansing unclean animals making them clean. He was showing Peter that he was about to cleanse the hearts of people whom the Jews considered to be unclean. The same example Jesus used in Mark 7. But you also need to read further about the book of Mark..the Bible even says that the early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have some of the scriptures at the end of Mark…so it would make us wonder…what else has been possibly lost?
Personally, eating pork is your choice and mine. If you do, great and that is a choice of yours and if I don’t, then that’s fine too as it is a choice of mine. Brothers are to live together in harmony. While you may believe a certain way, that is your belief..and I have mine. All I know is that the truth stands alone; it does not lean one way or the other. Truth is perfectly balanced.
As far as pagan holidays. That is a personal choice also. If Jesus wanted us to celebrate His birth, He would have told us so. I choose to celebrate Passover; not Easter. Jesus; especially with easter falling so early this year, was clearly still alive. It makes no sense to celebrate easter before Passover so for me personally, that is just following another tradition of man. Easter was focused around the worship of the sun. I celebrate not the death but the resurrection of my Lord. His death and resurrection would have occurred 14 days from yesterday since yesterday was the new moon. God centered his timing around the moon; not the sun. I could go on and on as well but frankly I am growing tired. We will agree to disagree and may God continue to be with you and bless you. See you in Heaven, brother.
It always amazes me…so many who rail at the Catholic Church for what they call her errors are so quick to do exactly what St. Paul said NOT to, and fall back into Jewish customs and feasts. Paul said explicitely that believers are NOT to observe Jewish times and seasons and Sabbaths and feasts. New Wine calls for New Wineskins, that is, new forms and holy days. The Church is the New Israel, made up of believers of EVERY tribe and nation and tongue.
I think though I understand why this attraction for many to Jewish ways…it is because most Americans have simply lost their own culture and long for one. Jewish ways offer them all kinds of cultural accoutrements. The sad part is, there IS a perfectly wonderful CHRISTIAN culture, the same one that produced the great music of Palestrina, Handel, and Bach; the same one that produced great artists like Michaelangelo; the same one that caused men like Francis Xavier to undertake great missionary work for the Lord.
Michael,
Here is a link to a Jewish Catholic web page that you may find interesting.
http://www.salvationisfromthejews.com
Just a quick note as I don’t have a lot of time tonight.
Simcha Jacobovici Aka the Naked Archaelogist is the same person who was part of the documentary about the Lost Tomb of Jesus. His credibility in this field I find lacking. His show on that topic was almost a joke. A non believing coworker even thought it was weak. If the Naked Archaelogist show was about a ossuary of Simon Bar Jonah, I also find that a very weak premise. That name was more than likely common. I could go on. I refer to these types of shows as speculative history. They have numerous theories and little substance. I find it very interesting that they usually are aired around Easter and Christmas. Could it be for ratings?
I do appreciate that we have kept this conversation civil… as believers of Christ should. I do intensely disagree with many of you comments. I have learned some things that I have never really thought about but that naturally is the case when you hear other view points. Like you said before we can agree to disagree. Prior to this, I really had not broached this subject matter. I will keep you in my prayers and God Bless. Feel free to comment in the future.
David,
Thanks for the comment. You made some very good points. I am not sure if this is what Michael experienced but I am sure that this could influence some. The Catholic Faith and Culture is a treasure for the world that many are not aware of. The Catholic culture does have a rich tapestry of art and music that is largely ignored.
I hope you continue to peruse the Blog and feel free to comment.
God Bless
[...] http://discoverthefaith.com/2008/03/06/john-hagee-an-anti-catholic-bigot/ [...]
Hagee is one of the main reason our founding fathers wanted religion out of government.
If you are interested in detail on Jack Chick’s publication on Alberto Rivera’s testimony about the Vatican Islam Conspiracy then let me know. I wrote one.
Hey jd,
I like what you have written on this blog. I personally am lutheran, but I have many friends who are roman catholic and i respect roman catholicism.
I was wondering if you could explain, from a roman catholic perspective, the idea of confession and purgatory with achieving eternal salvation. I dont mean to offend or attack the Roman Catholic church, but I have read throughout the bible and almost every quote I have found (John 3:16, Romans 3:22-27, Ephesians 2:8-9, to name a few) says to receive eternal salvation , one needs faith in God and Jesus. Ephesians 2:8-9 says that we are NOT saved through works. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe confession constitutes as works. The only book of the bible that I have found that contradicts this statement is the book of James, which reminds christians to also have good works to ‘boost their faith’. “So faith by itself , if it has no works, is dead”.
Please do not think that I am am saying good works are unimportant. As Paul says in Romans 6 1a-3, “Should we continue to sin so that grace may be abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin go on living in it?”. Works just no longer become part of salvation. As we have died to sin in Jesus Christ, sin no longer has dominion over us. Works become part of being a christian. Works to receive Gods forgiveness are part of the old covenant of genesis, exodus, and leviticus.
Please also do not also think that confession is unimportant. We still should confess our sins, it is just not a necessary part of salvation.
Also, please explain to me about purgatory. When I talk to catholic friends about purgatory, I ask them ‘Where in the bible does it talk about purgatory?’ They do not know the answer, and neither do I. Purgatory, from all that I have seen and heard, is an essential part of Roman Catholic salvation. And yet nowhere in the bible does it talk about purgatory! I have nothing against Roman Catholic customs from the early church, yet why should a church base it’s idea of salvation around its customs rather than the words of god himself through Jesus and the Holy spirit through his apostles?
This has to do with all of the arguments that you have set up. Many of them are based on early church customs. Why set up a church based on traditions and customs rather than the word of God himself? Any practices that relate directly to the gospel or letters, in my mind, is almost certainly a valid practice.
Please forgive me if I am stereotyping. When I say ‘you’, I am referring to the Roman Catholic Church. As I said in the start of this letter, I do not mean to offend, but to clarify a point. If I say anything here which could be considered untruthful, please correct me. Martin Luther himself was a Roman Catholic, and meant to reform, not separate. As it says in the bible, “A house divided against itself cannot stand”. We Christians, as the catholic or universal church should unite together as believers in Christ. I do not write to offend, but to attempt to find the truth in Christ.
Also, you have written: ‘When Catholics “pray” to the saints they are merely asking the saints in heaven to pray for them just like we ask each other to pray for us. The prayers of the righteous availeth much… as the Bible says and the Saints in heaven are more righteous than either you or I am’. First, I would like to know where that is quoted. Also, even if saints are more righteous, they all fall short of the glory of god. Even Paul, one of the greatest saints, says in Romans “Wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?
Also when Jesus died to end sin, the Temple curtain tore in half. The temple curtain in Jerusalem was the symbol on earth that separated man from god, which only purified priests could pass through once a year. Through his death, Jesus broke the barrier between God and man. All men, not just purified priests, could now stand in front of God and enter his kingdom. Jesus gave his pure life for this gift, a gift of grace. Mankind crucified Jesus, and he gave us all he had. Praying through saints is squandering this wonderful connection God gave us in death. If God died for our sins, surely he will listen to our prayers. We have the Holy spirit living in us! Surely if God is part of us, humans created in gods image can pray to him. Why should God care more if a less flawed human prays to him rather than a more flawed? As Jesus said, He came for the wicked, not the righteousness.
Please forgive me for any false statements that I have made, or stereotypes of the Catholic church I have presented, or any other sin or mistake present in this letter. I wish to challenge any false beliefs of any church not based in the bible.
We all, as the people of God, are all part of the catholic Church, as it states in the apostles creed. May all those who suffer for there belief in Christ be blessed. “It is through many persecutions that we must enter the kingdom of Christ” (Acts 14:24)
God bless you and bring peace to the world.
indecisivenerd
indecisivenerd
Thanks for the post! I am going to try to answer all of your questions. I want to tackle one at a time to make it easier to follow. I am going to put the answers on a new post because I think that these are some good questions. I will post them here also. I hope to have something up regarding Purgatory tonight.
Thanks again and God bless.
Chris
ndecisivenerd,
Thanks for the post and I do appreciate the non-confrontational tone of your comment. It makes it easier to discuss these questions when they are brought in a non aggressive manner.
You have brought up quite a few concepts in your post and I hope to answer most of your questions. I thought it might be easier to answer one question at a time, rather than try to tackle them all in one shot. This may take a few days but the answer(s) you get should be more complete.
I would like to start by answering your question about purgatory first, but before I do that I think that we need to clarify that the Catholic Church does not adhere to the doctrine of Sola Scriptura. The Church and the Bible teach us that not everything taught by the Jesus and the Apostles was written down. The Church does hold scripture in high esteem since it is the Word of God. The problem is that the Word of God was not only written down, it was passed on orally by the Apostles. This is Sacred Tradition. This is not to be confused with the traditions of men that Jesus condemned (only if they nullify the word of God–Jesus did not condemn all tradition). Now that we have that straight I can explain the concept of Purgatory and how that concept is, indeed, Biblical.
There are concepts that are accepted by the majority of Christians even though the words that are used to explain the concepts are not found in the Bible. The concept of the Trinity is one such example. Purgatory is another example of a word that is not found in the Bible but the concept is there.
Before I get to the passages that support the concept of Purgatory, I want to clarify some misunderstandings of what purgatory is and what it is not. Purgatory has nothing at all to do with our eternal salvation. Christ is the only one who can remove the eternal penalty due to sin. Purgatory only removes the temporal effects of sin. The temporal effects of sin are still with mankind. Two examples of temporal effects caused by sin are death and sickness. These remain even though Jesus takes away the eternal penalty of sin! All who go to purgatory are already saved, so if they are already saved then it follows that purgatory has nothing to do with the eternal salvation.
The first part of the concept of Purgatory that I would like to look at is the idea that nothing unclean can enter Heaven . Rev 21:27 NAB says:
27
but nothing unclean will enter it, nor any (one) who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
This passage shows the concept that only the clean or righteous will enter heaven. How does one get cleaned up or how does one remove the temporal effects of sin? Other passages that reinforce this are Matthew 5:8 and Hebrews 12:14. Will you agree that sin stains the soul?
Now I would like to look at 2 Corinthians 5:10. This passage indicates that we will all receive recompense for what we do. The key to understanding this is that Paul is writing to believers in Corith and telling them that even though you may be saved you will be judged by what you do.
For we must all appear 7 before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive recompense, according to what he did in the body, whether good or evil.
This leads me to 1 Corinthians 3:10-15. This passage is probably the passage that provides the most support for the doctrine of purgatory in the New Testament.
10 6 According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But each one must be careful how he builds upon it, 11 for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13 the work of each will come to light, for the Day 7 will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one’s work. 14 If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage.15 But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, 8 but only as through fire.
This passage strongly points to a process or place where one is purified from their their sinful acts. It also indicates that this will involve suffering but still be saved. This is not hell and this is not heaven. The Catholic Church calls this place purgatory. Mark 9:49 and Psalm 99:8 give us evidence that God does give forgiveness but still punishes us as discipline as a way to refine or purify us.
Finally, there are two Deuterocanonical passages that are relevant to the doctrine of purgatory. 2 Maccabees 12:38-46 is one of the commonly cited passages used as support for purgatory. The practice of prayers for the dead is also clearly here. The reason this passage is cited is because praying for the dead would be needless if there was only heaven and hell. The only reason to pray for the souls of the dead would be ones that needed them for another reason. The prayers were for the atonement of the dead. The prayers were used to help make the sinners one with God. The other passage that is cited is Sirach 7:33.
I hope that I gave you the biblical rationale for the doctrine of purgatory. There are others who have provided more detail than I on this subject. Catholic Answers (catholic.com) has some good reference material on the subject matter and their message boards generally have some good information. The people there are generally well behaved if you ask them questions in the manner you have asked me. They do get feisty if you ask them in a more confrontational manner.
I will continue answering your questions tomorrow. I hope to answer your questions about confession and if I have time some of the others.
[...] http://discoverthefaith.com/2008/03/06/john-hagee-an-anti-catholic-bigot/ [...]
Indecisivenerd,
I finally found some time to continue answering some of your questions. Sorry for the delay. Hopefully this will answer some of your questions about confession. Confession is one of the seven “sacraments of faith” in the Catholic Church.
The Bible gives ample evidence of the authority given to the Church to forgive and retain sins. Let us look at several of these passages.
Matthew 16:19
19: I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
Matthew 18:18
18: Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven
John:20:23
23: If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”
Acts 19:18
18: Many also of those who were now believers came, confessing and divulging their practices.
2Corinthians 2:18
10: Any one whom you forgive, I also forgive. What I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for your sake in the presence of Christ,
James 5:15
15: and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16: Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.
1 John 1:9
9: If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Here you have various passages that infer that confession of sins was practiced in the early Christian Church of the Bible. We also clearly see that there were those who were given the authority to bind and loose This was authority which also included the forgiveness of sins. I think that John 20:23 shows that Jesus gave authority to the disciples to go out and not just forgive, but also retain sins. I will agree that this practice developed over time but the practice of confession was part of the early Church.
I also would like to point out that 1 John 1:9 places an “if” condition on forgiveness of sins. The passage clearly says “if” we confess our sins. That Jesus will forgive our sins. It clearly says that we have to do something. This is part of the obedience of Faith that Paul talks about in Romans 1:5. Belief is not just acknowledgment of Jesus as Lord, it is obedience to what he taught. Baptism, the Eucharist, confession of sins, and all of Jesus’ teachings are part of this obedience. These are not the “works of the law” that Paul is talking about.
Since I already brought up the passage that talks about the prayer of the righteous (James 5:16), I will give a brief answer to your question about intercessory prayer.
“Intercessory prayer” is the type of prayer that are given to the Saints in heaven that have been perfected in Jesus Christ. We ask them to intercede on our behalf. 1 Tim 2:1-4 says:
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth
Do you ever ask anyone to pray for you in a time of need? Have you ever prayed for anyone in a time of need? If so does this squander the wonderful connection God gave to us? Not at all. As Christians we are all part of the Body of Christ! I like to look at 1 Corinthians 12:26 to help explain this.
If one member suffers all suffer together, if one member is honored all rejoice together. Jesus rejoices any time anyone of his body is honored and he it does not take away from the special connection by asking those in heaven to pray for us just as it does not by asking our brethren on Earth to pray for us. The word pray literally means “to ask”. And that is all we are doing when we ask the Saints in heaven to pray for us.
Revelation 8:3-4 and Rev 5:8 both indicate that those in heaven are aware of our prayers and that they present them to God.
Rev 8:3-4
[3] And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne;
[4] and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.
Rev 5:8
[8] And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;
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Hopefully I have helped you understand the Catholic view on the various topics that you inquired about. If you have anymore questions or if I left something out, please let me know. There are plenty of Catholic resources that can give a more in depth explanation for all these topics. Catholic Answers, EWTN and many other sights provide excellent information on the Catholic Church.
[...] http://discoverthefaith.com/2008/03/06/john-hagee-an-anti-catholic-bigot/ [...]
I had a local Adventist Doctor show me a film full of anti-Catholic sentiment. It explored past Church abuses and showed a film of Pope John Paul the whole time. They are certain that the Pope is the anti-Christ, the Catholic Church is the whore of Babylon, and that worship on Sunday constitutes no less than the Mark of the Beast. I realize these are old gripes, but I was very distressed with what I consider bigotry coming from a health care professional. They tell me that the Catholic Church changed the day of the Sabbath from Saturday. Can you please explain this to me and why don’t we all go back if that is the true day of Sabbath?
Derek,
Did the doctor give you the film in his office while on business? This seems very unprofessional. I would consider another doctor if this is the case. If the doctor gave me the tape I would kindly give him some Catholic material out of gratitude!:-)
There are several Bible passages that show a change from Saturday or the Seventh Day worship to Sunday worship in the Bible. I will list some of these, but I would also like to quote some early Church writings that show clearly that the change to Sunday worship came early in the Church.
Acts 20:7 shows us that the “Lord’s Day was being celebrated on the first day of the week or Sunday early on in the Church.
7: On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them, intending to depart on the morrow; and he prolonged his speech until midnight.
1 Corinthians 16:1-2 continues the idea that worship had been moved from the seventh day to the “Lord’s Day”.
1: Now concerning the contribution for the saints: as I directed the churches of Galatia, so you also are to do. 2: On the first day of every week, each of you is to put something aside and store it up, as he may prosper, so that contributions need not be made when I come.
Revelation 1:10 speaks of the Lord’s day:
10: I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet
Colossians 2:16-17 strongly points to the sabbath as a foreshadowing of the Lord’s day.
16: Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a sabbath. 17: These are only a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
Now I want to look at a couple early church writings that point to the fact that the Lord’s day took the place of Saturday worship. The first writing I want to look at is from the Didache. The Didache is an first century writing. It is one of the oldest non Biblical Christian writings.
On the Lord’s Day of the Lord gather together, break bread and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure.(The Faith of the Early Fathers:Volume 1:pg 4)
Ignatius of Antioch writing in the second century in his letter to the Magnesians writes:
If, then, those who walked in ancient customs came to a new hope, no longer sabbathing but living the Lord’s Day, on which we came to life through Him and through His death. (Faith of the Early Fathers Volume 1 pg:19)
The Lord’s day has replaced the sabbath, as the Lord’s day is on the day of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. This practice was not started by Constantine. This practice was started in Biblical times and we see witness to it in the writings of the early church Fathers. There are many other examples that I could point to. I always recommend catholic.com if you want more information on these subjects.
Would you rather take the opinion of people writing in the first centuries over those who came up with new “traditions” in the last couple of hundred years? I know who I would look to!
God Bless,
Chris
Thank you so much Chris. To answer your question, no he is not my physician. This was outside of a professional setting. He tells me that he is not a bigot and does not have prejudice toward any group of peoples. However the Adventist film he showed me was very anti-Catholic to me and was offensive.
Derek,
No problem. The Adventist are are one of the more anti-catholic groups out there. The only thing you can do is show them where they are in error and pray for them if that does not work. They probably think they are helping the “poor” Catholics see the truth and don’t realize that it is offensive. Let me know if I can help you out with anything else.
Chris
saint-statues.com…
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