Discover the Faith

Recently, I received a comment from someone who had genuine questions about several Catholic doctrines. I have decided to answer the questions one at a time rather than trying to answer them all at once. Here is a link to the original post where the comment was posted.

http://discoverthefaith.com/2008/03/06/john-hagee-an-anti-catholic-bigot/

Here is the comment.

Hey jd,

I like what you have written on this blog. I personally am lutheran, but I have many friends who are roman catholic and i respect roman catholicism.

I was wondering if you could explain, from a roman catholic perspective, the idea of confession and purgatory with achieving eternal salvation. I dont mean to offend or attack the Roman Catholic church, but I have read throughout the bible and almost every quote I have found (John 3:16, Romans 3:22-27, Ephesians 2:8-9, to name a few) says to receive eternal salvation , one needs faith in God and Jesus. Ephesians 2:8-9 says that we are NOT saved through works. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe confession constitutes as works. The only book of the bible that I have found that contradicts this statement is the book of James, which reminds christians to also have good works to ‘boost their faith’. “So faith by itself , if it has no works, is dead”.

Please do not think that I am am saying good works are unimportant. As Paul says in Romans 6 1a-3, “Should we continue to sin so that grace may be abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin go on living in it?”. Works just no longer become part of salvation. As we have died to sin in Jesus Christ, sin no longer has dominion over us. Works become part of being a christian. Works to receive Gods forgiveness are part of the old covenant of genesis, exodus, and leviticus.

Please also do not also think that confession is unimportant. We still should confess our sins, it is just not a necessary part of salvation.

Also, please explain to me about purgatory. When I talk to catholic friends about purgatory, I ask them ‘Where in the bible does it talk about purgatory?’ They do not know the answer, and neither do I. Purgatory, from all that I have seen and heard, is an essential part of Roman Catholic salvation. And yet nowhere in the bible does it talk about purgatory! I have nothing against Roman Catholic customs from the early church, yet why should a church base it’s idea of salvation around its customs rather than the words of god himself through Jesus and the Holy spirit through his apostles?

This has to do with all of the arguments that you have set up. Many of them are based on early church customs. Why set up a church based on traditions and customs rather than the word of God himself? Any practices that relate directly to the gospel or letters, in my mind, is almost certainly a valid practice.

Please forgive me if I am stereotyping. When I say ‘you’, I am referring to the Roman Catholic Church. As I said in the start of this letter, I do not mean to offend, but to clarify a point. If I say anything here which could be considered untruthful, please correct me. Martin Luther himself was a Roman Catholic, and meant to reform, not separate. As it says in the bible, “A house divided against itself cannot stand”. We Christians, as the catholic or universal church should unite together as believers in Christ. I do not write to offend, but to attempt to find the truth in Christ.

Also, you have written: ‘When Catholics “pray” to the saints they are merely asking the saints in heaven to pray for them just like we ask each other to pray for us. The prayers of the righteous availeth much… as the Bible says and the Saints in heaven are more righteous than either you or I am’. First, I would like to know where that is quoted. Also, even if saints are more righteous, they all fall short of the glory of god. Even Paul, one of the greatest saints, says in Romans “Wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?

Also when Jesus died to end sin, the Temple curtain tore in half. The temple curtain in Jerusalem was the symbol on earth that separated man from god, which only purified priests could pass through once a year. Through his death, Jesus broke the barrier between God and man. All men, not just purified priests, could now stand in front of God and enter his kingdom. Jesus gave his pure life for this gift, a gift of grace. Mankind crucified Jesus, and he gave us all he had. Praying through saints is squandering this wonderful connection God gave us in death. If God died for our sins, surely he will listen to our prayers. We have the Holy spirit living in us! Surely if God is part of us, humans created in gods image can pray to him. Why should God care more if a less flawed human prays to him rather than a more flawed? As Jesus said, He came for the wicked, not the righteousness.

Please forgive me for any false statements that I have made, or stereotypes of the Catholic church I have presented, or any other sin or mistake present in this letter. I wish to challenge any false beliefs of any church not based in the bible.

We all, as the people of God, are all part of the catholic Church, as it states in the apostles creed. May all those who suffer for there belief in Christ be blessed. “It is through many persecutions that we must enter the kingdom of Christ” (Acts 14:24)

God bless you and bring peace to the world.

indecisivenerd

Here is my first response. I chose to answer the question about purgatory first.

ndecisivenerd,

Thanks for the post and I do appreciate the non-confrontational tone of your comment. It makes it easier to discuss these questions when they are brought in a non aggressive manner.

You have brought up quite a few concepts in your post and I hope to answer most of your questions. I thought it might be easier to answer one question at a time, rather than try to tackle them all in one shot. This may take a few days but the answer(s) you get should be more complete.

I would like to start by answering your question about purgatory first, but before I do that I think that we need to clarify that the Catholic Church does not adhere to the doctrine of Sola Scriptura. The Church and the Bible teach us that not everything taught by the Jesus and the Apostles was written down. The Church does hold scripture in high esteem since it is the Word of God. The problem is that the Word of God was not only written down, it was passed on orally by the Apostles. This is Sacred Tradition. This is not to be confused with the traditions of men that Jesus condemned (only if they nullify the word of God–Jesus did not condemn all tradition). Now that we have that straight I can explain the concept of Purgatory and how that concept is, indeed, Biblical.

There are concepts that are accepted by the majority of Christians even though the words that are used to explain the concepts are not found in the Bible. The concept of the Trinity is one such example. Purgatory is another example of a word that is not found in the Bible but the concept is there.

Before I get to the passages that support the concept of Purgatory, I want to clarify some misunderstandings of what purgatory is and what it is not. Purgatory has nothing at all to do with our eternal salvation. Christ is the only one who can remove the eternal penalty due to sin. Purgatory only removes the temporal effects of sin. The temporal effects of sin are still with mankind. Two examples of temporal effects caused by sin are death and sickness. These remain even though Jesus takes away the eternal penalty of sin! All who go to purgatory are already saved, so if they are already saved then it follows that purgatory has nothing to do with the eternal salvation.

The first part of the concept of Purgatory that I would like to look at is the idea that nothing unclean can enter Heaven . Rev 21:27 NAB says:

27

but nothing unclean will enter it, nor any (one) who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

This passage shows the concept that only the clean or righteous will enter heaven. How does one get cleaned up or how does one remove the temporal effects of sin? Other passages that reinforce this are Matthew 5:8 and Hebrews 12:14. Will you agree that sin stains the soul?

Now I would like to look at 2 Corinthians 5:10. This passage indicates that we will all receive recompense for what we do. The key to understanding this is that Paul is writing to believers in Corith and telling them that even though you may be saved you will be judged by what you do.

For we must all appear ⁷ before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive recompense, according to what he did in the body, whether good or evil.

This leads me to 1 Corinthians 3:10-15. This passage is probably the passage that provides the most support for the doctrine of purgatory in the New Testament.

10 ⁶ According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But each one must be careful how he builds upon it, 11 for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13 the work of each will come to light, for the Day ⁷ will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one’s work. 14 If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage.15 But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, ⁸ but only as through fire.

This passage strongly points to a process or place where one is purified from their their sinful acts. It also indicates that this will involve suffering but the believer will still be saved. This is not hell and this is not heaven. The Catholic Church calls this place purgatory. Mark 9:49 and Psalm 99:8 give us evidence that God does give forgiveness but still punishes us as discipline as a way to refine or purify us.

Finally, there are two Deuterocanonical passages that are relevant to the doctrine of purgatory. 2 Maccabees 12:38-46 is one of the commonly cited passages used as support for purgatory. The practice of prayers for the dead is also clearly here. The reason this passage is cited is because praying for the dead would be needless if there was only heaven and hell. The only reason to pray for the souls of the dead would be ones that needed them for another reason. The prayers were for the atonement of the dead. The prayers were used to help make the sinners one with God. The other passage that is cited is Sirach 7:33.

I hope that I gave you the biblical rationale for the doctrine of purgatory. There are others who have provided more detail than I on this subject. Catholic Answers (catholic.com) has some good reference material on the subject matter and their message boards generally have some good information. The people there are generally well behaved if you ask them questions in the manner you have asked me. They do get feisty if you ask them in a more confrontational manner.

I will continue answering your questions tomorrow. I hope to answer your questions about confession and if I have time some of the others.